How to Change my Spoilt Dog!!

[Foxy Roxy]

Hiya,

* WARNING, long rambling post coming up! *

Having a few niggles with Roxy at the moment,:069: it started with her howling but a few other little problems have come apparent also.

Roxy has, in recent weeks started howling when left (in the evenings for approx 2-4hours, she is at work with me all day). Rio was howling to so we decided to separate them so Roxy has been at my Mums for a few days. Rio has been as good as gold, perfectly quiet and settled when left, very relaxed around the house:046: etc etc. Roxy has been howling at Mum's (I know different place etc but she has always started it anyway). :023:

Roxy is coming back tomorrow. Mum has pointed a few things out to me, which I should've noticed myself but didn't. She thinks Roxy is over stimulated with attention (being with me all day and most evenings), she is bossy with the other dogs (stealing toys from there mouths, trying to take food off them, growling showing teeth if they try things back at her.:012: Our other dogs all submit, give in to her!) and generally she is a bit spoilt. .....all I can say is, I agree!

Roxy is a real Mummy's girl, glued to my leg in the house - whereever I am, she is. She pre-empts my every move, if I get up, she gets up, if I go to the garden she's out the door before me etc. Whereas Rio is quite content to do her own thing, take herself off to bed etc. Roxy gets very distressed if she's without me (for example is shut in an ajoining room - even with kongs, chewies etc).

I know I'm rambling on, and don't know what I'm trying to ask or say :024::035:!! I suppose what I really want to know is how I get Roxy to relax, take a chill pill, realise she doesn't need to be glued to my side at all times etc

Hope that makes some sort of sense!?! Pleeeeeease help!! :011:

- Holly -

[jean]

Is roxy a working cocker?
My lot are very similar in ways ie they have to be with me every min ( unless of course we are out in the fields where there are rabbits as they are more appealing than me there)
peppers always been a handful. she has separation anxiety and fear aggression. she too appears to be the boss however Rolo is very fly at getting around her and looks can be deceiving as it actually Liath who gets her own way all the time, shes the one who will stick into a visiting dog when she thinks no one os looking if they offend her in any way. altho I have to say I can count these incidents on One hand and she is nearly 10 so shes pretty good and is usually only putting them in their place, pepper is more open about it but thats because she is scared. shes saying go away leave me alone.
perhaps roxy is a bit fearful too and maybe unintentionally you are reinforcing this behaviour somehow. I know I did with pepper at the vets she was so scared she would bite and I used to fuss over her and get very anxious myself. thats all been resolved now as I see a female vet mostly she likes ladies I think she associated the male vets with trauma.
anyway I just walk her in now make her sit and ignore her and read a magazine or something so she just flops down and watches things quietly.
when its her turn we just walk in quietly no fuss before Id be coaxing her waiting for the hysterics. so I think I fed her anxiety.
as for the seperation thing I cheat, my lot have a big dog run and kennel at the croft for when Im working.
if I have to go out for a short time without them they are less stressed if they are all together in one place where they cant see out windows to bark at stuff and wind each other up into howling. I put them all in rolos cage which is deerhound sized, to get them used to this as pepper used to try and dig her way out her room to me. fine at night she just sleeps in her own bed downstairs but this was during the day. If Im in the house wanting to do something without the dogs I have to crate them as if they see me they want to be with me. they watch quietly from the crate as I do what ever it is Im doing , they know its only for a little while and have learned that nothing bad happens there. my lot wont even stay out in the garden unless Im there too.Pepper can open doors so she goes where she likes ( thats why I use the crate a lot.she hasnt learnt to break out of there yet!) pepper would go ballistic if she was crated alone she has to have company so there is always another dog in with her. Rolos the only one whos happy on his own, liath and pepper are joined at the hip.
hope this helps a bit but you arent alone in having potty dogs! I think pepper deserves the potty cup as shes riddled with insecurities which are all mostly of her own making. she has been beaten up badly by labs so that reinforced her onlead fear of strange dogs and she has injured herself badly many times through her own carelessness and disregard for her own safety. so this led to a fear of the vets which is now much less.

[Tanya]

Sounds like you need the resident behaviorists experts help, not sure what her hourly fee's are like though ;) she has a large pickled onion habit to support you know :045:

We had serious SA with Frida when we got her, but it just took time, patience and certainly not making a big fuss of her when we left or entered the room. Can you you create a safe 'den' in a crate just for her with nice stuffed kongs etc and just leave her in there periodically when you are in the house so she gets used to being secure and happy in there to start with.....?

[MightyMouth]

I am starting to have the same problem with Lyla. Spoke to Caroline and she agrees with me that with Lyla it is a fear thing but....I have the same problem with the glued bit. If I go to the loo she is there, if I get up she is already on the floor waiting and I do not get any peace at all. Kali is starting to come second to Lylas demands which I want to nip in the bud. If I put her behind the baby gate she claws at the walls and I have no doubt if I left her she would howl and chew. I cannot though because I think Holly would tear her to pieces! I have started showing Lyla her place in the scheme of things. Kali gets fed first, when I go through a door I am training Lyla to wait until I am through before she gets to come through and....I am going to start putting her in kennels for a few days at a time to get her used to other people and being apart from me. She is really rough and tumble with Kali but is fearful of everything else. It is a dilemma isn't it? I just know that allowing her to be so clingy isn't the answer to anything. Good luck with your limpet!! :075::006:

[Foxy Roxy]

Hi Jean,

Thank you so much for taking the time to write all that, I've just sat down and read through it all and it is really, really great to know I'm not alone in this. I really appreciate you writing down all the senario's etc.

Both Roxy and Rio are working cockers. My other dogs are Penny (nearly 12yr Old Lab X) and Sophie (9yr Old Border Collie).

Though I hate to say it, I think 99% of the problem is me! My Border Collie has been quite a difficult dog to own, she is a complete scatter brain, very nervous aggressive has been ever since we had her. This has meant that I have been overly cautious with R & R - subconciously treating them as if they were Sophie (Border C) in certain situations, R & R have probably picked up on me being anxious. I'm not a very confident person at the best of times which doesn't help!

I know many people hate CM but there is one bit I have picked up on from his training methods that I have found to help. He always says to be 'Calm & Assertive' and when I consiously remember this and take it on board, the dogs are so so much better. They're so much less on edge. For example when meeting other dogs, if I'm edgy then the dogs are fearful, if I'm relaxed, not on edge they get on fine with the oncoming doglet.

I want to nip these niggles with Roxy in the bud early on as I know its me thats made her like it, so hopefully I can un-make her like it. With Sophie (Collie), I know its just how she is, we've coped with it for 9yrs and just make allowances.

The kennel at work is a good idea. Its not do-able here, however we do have a spare office that is un-used 90% of the time so am going to start putting them in there after there morning and lunchtime walks. It should hopefully break that pattern of her being glued to me. Rio and Penny are in there now and I've not heard a peep out of either of them :045:

Your vet scenario is v.v.v.similar to me with the Collie. I get very nervy at the vets and Sophie used to pick up on it, to the point where it became a pin down and muzzle job just for annual vaccinations. Partly due to a completely dimpy male vet. Since seeing a female vet who doesn't rush, doesn't over fuss etc Sophie has become loads better. Thesedays my Mum takes her to any necessary vet visits as she handles Soph a lot better! The cockers are great at the vets, I took a clean slate, calm assertive approach and they get on great.

On another positive note, with Roxy being away I have focussed on lots of training with Rio and am having outstanding results! To the point where her bird chasing is nearly stopped (but I'm still carefully around highly bird popultated areas!). When Roxy is back (tomorrow) I'm going to make sure I keep up the separate training as I used to do when they were pups.

Looking forward to having Roxy back now! Not sure with Pen & Rio are - they don't appear to be missing her in the slightest, which I find unbelievable!!!!!!!

Anyway, best get on with some work!

- Holly -




Is roxy a working cocker?
My lot are very similar in ways ie they have to be with me every min ( unless of course we are out in the fields where there are rabbits as they are more appealing than me there)
peppers always been a handful. she has separation anxiety and fear aggression. she too appears to be the boss however Rolo is very fly at getting around her and looks can be deceiving as it actually Liath who gets her own way all the time, shes the one who will stick into a visiting dog when she thinks no one os looking if they offend her in any way. altho I have to say I can count these incidents on One hand and she is nearly 10 so shes pretty good and is usually only putting them in their place, pepper is more open about it but thats because she is scared. shes saying go away leave me alone.
perhaps roxy is a bit fearful too and maybe unintentionally you are reinforcing this behaviour somehow. I know I did with pepper at the vets she was so scared she would bite and I used to fuss over her and get very anxious myself. thats all been resolved now as I see a female vet mostly she likes ladies I think she associated the male vets with trauma.
anyway I just walk her in now make her sit and ignore her and read a magazine or something so she just flops down and watches things quietly.
when its her turn we just walk in quietly no fuss before Id be coaxing her waiting for the hysterics. so I think I fed her anxiety.
as for the seperation thing I cheat, my lot have a big dog run and kennel at the croft for when Im working.
if I have to go out for a short time without them they are less stressed if they are all together in one place where they cant see out windows to bark at stuff and wind each other up into howling. I put them all in rolos cage which is deerhound sized, to get them used to this as pepper used to try and dig her way out her room to me. fine at night she just sleeps in her own bed downstairs but this was during the day. If Im in the house wanting to do something without the dogs I have to crate them as if they see me they want to be with me. they watch quietly from the crate as I do what ever it is Im doing , they know its only for a little while and have learned that nothing bad happens there. my lot wont even stay out in the garden unless Im there too.Pepper can open doors so she goes where she likes ( thats why I use the crate a lot.she hasnt learnt to break out of there yet!) pepper would go ballistic if she was crated alone she has to have company so there is always another dog in with her. Rolos the only one whos happy on his own, liath and pepper are joined at the hip.
hope this helps a bit but you arent alone in having potty dogs! I think pepper deserves the potty cup as shes riddled with insecurities which are all mostly of her own making. she has been beaten up badly by labs so that reinforced her onlead fear of strange dogs and she has injured herself badly many times through her own carelessness and disregard for her own safety. so this led to a fear of the vets which is now much less.

[Foxy Roxy]

Sounds like you need the resident behaviorists experts help, not sure what her hourly fee's are like though ;) she has a large pickled onion habit to support you know :045:

We had serious SA with Frida when we got her, but it just took time, patience and certainly not making a big fuss of her when we left or entered the room. Can you you create a safe 'den' in a crate just for her with nice stuffed kongs etc and just leave her in there periodically when you are in the house so she gets used to being secure and happy in there to start with.....?

Pickled onion habit LMAO!! te he he!!

Rox does have a little canvas crate, will try what you suggested thank you.

[Meerkat]

Sounds like you need the resident behaviorists experts help, not sure what her hourly fee's are like though ;) she has a large pickled onion habit to support you know :045:



:062: it's not a habit honest :062: just if they are around I have a homing device to them :045:

Right Holly some great advice has been given :044: I'm not long in and not got my dog cap on at the mo but am going to pick at a few things that you and others have written :)

Quote off Foxy Roxy
I know many people hate CM but there is one bit I have picked up on from his training methods that I have found to help. He always says to be 'Calm & Assertive' and when I consiously remember this and take it on board, the dogs are so so much better. They're so much less on edge. For example when meeting other dogs, if I'm edgy then the dogs are fearful, if I'm relaxed, not on edge they get on fine with the oncoming doglet.

Now that is one bit of CM I will agree with :044:

Quote off Mighty mouth
I have started showing Lyla her place in the scheme of things. Kali gets fed first, when I go through a door I am training Lyla to wait until I am through before she gets to come through

The above is dominance theory - and lots of people frown on it but to me it makes sense :076: I feed mine in the order to which they came to live in the house and they all have to sit and wait till i say they can have it.
as for the door thing - well I don't look at it as dominance but as a safety thing (you can go thro and check all is clear before the dog follows you)


Quote off Foxy Roxy
Though I hate to say it, I think 99% of the problem is me!

YAY!!!!! this is the biggest step that most owners don't think about :044:

Please note - it is a big step but not the biggest you are going to have to make (OK and you are most definately not alone with the problems you have - I am ashamed to say that I also have some of the problems and it IS MY fault :072: )

Quote off Foxy Roxy
The kennel at work is a good idea

Yes have you got the crate training sheets or 'The complete idiots guide to positive dog training' by pamela Dennison ??

If you have the book then look in there for crate training and follow that but using the kennel
If you don't have the book and want me to write up sheets for you let me know and I will do.
The last thing you want to do is frighten her and you need to get her to accept it and understand it's not a punishment etc


I was real bad at putting the same values of humans on my dogs - which is not a good idea as dogs don't think like us (studying canine did make me see this but it is still hard to train out of me :076: )

Quote off Foxy Roxy
On another positive note, with Roxy being away I have focussed on lots of training with Rio and am having outstanding results! To the point where her bird chasing is nearly stopped (but I'm still carefully around highly bird popultated areas!). When Roxy is back (tomorrow) I'm going to make sure I keep up the separate training as I used to do when they were pups

this is a good idea and sometimes real hard when you have everything in life going on - but 10 min a day per dog every day is all you need

Please can I send Fern to you for the bird chasing ??? and I'll do Roxy's crate training :044:

will read through more thoroughly later and see if i can add anything to what others have said - off to cook tea now

[Pink Gundog]

I went to a shoot 2 weeks ago, left sweepie with my friend and she howled etc for the whole 6 hours I was away :074:

She is a typical velcro cocker, spoilt little toad in the fact that I always give in to her as its easier, she comes everywhere with me and I mean everywhere, she is never really left. I did once come home after leaving her with Will and I could hear the squeals from outside when she clocked it was me :074:

She does not conform to many training methods she is a nightmare :040: She has also taken to bossing and attacking Belle and bitten her on 2 occassions. This is the result of a spoilt dog, so your not alone :075:

[MightyMouth]

The making her wait until I go through the door first was something the local APDT insisted on! The way I feel is that there is something valuable to be gained from all the training stuff that is out there. I was once told by Kali and Lylas breeder training was using a combination of anything that works!! Not meaning pinning dogs down or using electric collars but other stuff certainly.

[Pink Gundog]

The making her wait until I go through the door first was something the local APDT insisted on!

This is so interesting :044:

Can I ask you sheryl, do you feel it helps in other aspects with the dogs by doing this :044:

[Foxy Roxy]

Sorry MM, didn't see this before. Sounds like the Cocker Limpit Society!!

Weird though how so many are so clingy, velcro like creatures. The kennels sounds like a good idea.


I am starting to have the same problem with Lyla. Spoke to Caroline and she agrees with me that with Lyla it is a fear thing but....I have the same problem with the glued bit. If I go to the loo she is there, if I get up she is already on the floor waiting and I do not get any peace at all. Kali is starting to come second to Lylas demands which I want to nip in the bud. If I put her behind the baby gate she claws at the walls and I have no doubt if I left her she would howl and chew. I cannot though because I think Holly would tear her to pieces! I have started showing Lyla her place in the scheme of things. Kali gets fed first, when I go through a door I am training Lyla to wait until I am through before she gets to come through and....I am going to start putting her in kennels for a few days at a time to get her used to other people and being apart from me. She is really rough and tumble with Kali but is fearful of everything else. It is a dilemma isn't it? I just know that allowing her to be so clingy isn't the answer to anything. Good luck with your limpet!! :075::006:

[Foxy Roxy]

Thank you so much for the post Cazza. :078: Yup, swop you any time to iron out each others dog probs! I've found the tennis ball in chuck it stick the best thing for training Rio to leave the birds as she wasn't so interested in the treats. When she started to get close to a bird, I shouted leave, grab the long line and the minute she diverted her attention from birds to me, I through the ball in the opposite direction with loads of praise. :045: Now if she sees a bird, she's almost waiting for me to shout leave and she waits for her bally to be thrown. Its working out really well - lets hope I'm not speaking to soon!! I'm also trying to train the emergency stop command for safety to, she's getting there with it! :020:

Right back to the velcro girl!

I don't have that crate info sheet but don't want to put you to the trouble with having to write it all out - you are a very busy person and don't want to take up too much of your time. :078:

I do want to make the crate to be a nice, secure place, now you've highlighted that I don't think I am introducing it as a nice place, just putting her in it, maybe with a handful of treats thrown in and off I go. Which is probably all wrong?

Mum has said, since Roxy has been in there, the only place she will go into a deep sleep was in the cats basket! Probably as its really snug and secure to her?

[MightyMouth]

Can I ask you sheryl, do you feel it helps in other aspects with the dogs by doing this

Cannot say as it helps with anything other than stopping them sending you flying by knocking your feet from under you. Then again, Lyla wasn't here so I have yet to see what impact it has on her and when she gets it mastered, on the others.

[Meerkat]

Off I trot to get the training sheets I have - will see if I can PM them to you if not I'll PM you for your email address :044:

[Meerkat]

Just sent you a PM - hope it helps

[Foxy Roxy]

That is great, thank you soooooooooo much for your help :051:

[Foxy Roxy]

Well, she's back! I'll start the crate training tomorrow. Rio & Pen didn't seem to impressed to see her back! I think they enjoyed the peace and quiet! te he

Roxy had her first proper Agility training session today, and...... it went really well! Up until now, I have been training the dogs on my own Agility equipment in a friends field. This is great in one way, but means they don't get the distrations/socialisation. So, today I joined a group with Roxy, and my Mum joined us with her dog. They both did realy well. I'd had visions of Roxy running off causing a riot, but she didn't! She completed the full course of 20 obstacles with only a couple of faults (a missed weave entry and launched off the see-saw! http://cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/Smileys/classic/005.gif), otherwise she did great! Mum's dog was a little edgy at first but by the end she was flying round to!

Having the few un-related niggles with Roxy lately with her howling, this really put a smile :044: back on my face!

[Tanya]

That's great Roxy :044: Hope you get somewhere with her limpet-ness soon :075:


There is supposed be an 'fun' agility class starting near me soon which I think I'll take Fargo along to, as he seemed to enjoy it at the last pink gundog weekend :044:

[Meerkat]

That's great news :044:

Glad you both enjoyed the agility - good luck with the crate training (and thanks for your PM saying you understood my typing :045: )